One thing I think you’re missing is the size of the classical homeschooling movement and the influence Canon Press has there. It’s up here and growing in Canada too- mostly with people who see “Christian worldview” and love it for that, and have no idea who Wilson actually is.
I'm very familiar with CC and his influence there. I'd refer you back to the numbers of conservative Presbyterianism. The post isn't about whether or not he has influence, it's about how small the world he has influence in is.
I guess that’s the thing though. I’m thinking about the homeschool conference in my province and who the people are that are using his work. They aren’t Presbyterian and they aren’t from his denomination. Presbyterians in this country would be quite likely to reject him, and we only have a very few of those churches in the province anyway. The people using him are Baptist, Pentecostal, non-denominational charismatic, Dutch and independent reformed, etc.
The cross section of what’s popular here is not his actual theology. It’s not the covenant/baptism/Calvinism (for the most part). It’s the ‘Christian worldview,’ the dominionism, gender roles, child discipline, standing against culture, and view of politics.
So at least up here, in this province, there is good evidence his influence has (a) escaped the denomination, (b) is growing rapidly outside the denomination and (c) is working its way out of the homeschooling crowd (which is also exponentially growing here as well). You just need to go to the provincial homeschool conference, and then watch to see how his daughter’s books get recommended to non-homeschooling parents and mom’s groups (usually by people who do homeschool). I don’t deny the formal group is relatively small, but if the implicit idea is that they aren’t people we need to think about because their core group is ‘currently’ small (it’s far more the trend that concerns me) or that their influence is limited to what can be seen by the numbers of conservative Presbyterians, I guess I’d disagree that either is a sufficiently nuanced metric.
Again, I would refer you to the numbers, compared to the overall populace. That's what the piece is about. I've personally seen someone go down the Doug rabbit hole, and it was dark. You have to keep what world we exist in, and its overall scope, in perspective.
Fair enough. On that point I do agree. I do also agree that the coverage didn’t understand the ins and outs of how conservative culture works. Thanks for the response.
This analysis is more concerned with scoring cheap shots against Wilson than seriously assessing the situation.
“Much smaller than the average Southern Baptist or non-denominational church”? Per the Lifeway Research report 70% of SBC churches are under a hundred people. Only 4% are over 500. Christ Church in Moscow is estimated between 900-2,000. Granted, that isn’t mega-church numbers, but it does put in the top 2% of churches in the US.
In addition to a very successful church (by numbers, I have no idea about the quality of community there), Wilson has helped build a classical school, St Andrew’s College, and a publishing house. You can scoff at his lack of social media and national influence, but you have to admit they guy has built some pretty impressive institutions from scratch.
I think you are vastly underestimating Wilson et al. Christ Church doubled in size since 2019. Members of the church own 20% of the downtown’s buildings. By running their own school and now college, they vastly increase the odds of passing their values to their children. I think it is very likely that Christ Church’s political influence over Moscow will start to come to a head within the next 10 years, and you will either see a flight from the city of people antagonistic towards the church or (more likely) a rising tide of lawfare against it
You should look at that picture of the interior of the church and recheck your attendance numbers. They don't add up. You're using the number of affiliated churches in the region. The total number of CREC members worldwide is estimated to be 13,000.
The rest of your post is pumping up the facade, and is a diversion from the following paragraph. Wilson's theological monstrosity, Federal Vision, was explicitly anathematized by the PCA for having a view of justification not inline with the Westminster standards:
"To compound this, consider that conservative Presbyterians, the tradition Wilson claims to be a part of, make up roughly 1% of the United States population, and roughly 26% of them lean Democrat. On top of this, the majority of conservative, orthodox Presbyterians, including most pastors, elders and theologians in the Presbyterian Church in America and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, consider Wilson to be a schismatic or outright heretic."
Christ Church has 3 campuses and 5 services every Sunday per their website. Clearly, they are not a small church if they have to have 5 services every Sunday
I should mention that I believe Wilson’s theology is heretical. But I still think objectively, he has been very successful in building institutions and realizing his vision. I’m impressed, even as I disagree with him. I’m not trying to “pump” Wilson up, I think those are just the facts of the situation.
There's no way that room seats 1200 Sunday morning. At best it seats the same of one section of that church I pictured in my hometown (that also does two services). Again, dozens of churches that size or bigger are in my medium-small Southern town, doing multiple services. One of the suburban First Baptists here has a whole offshoot of differently branded campuses, each the size of that one Moscow building. That's the point. Wilson has been trying to build a physical empire for decades and that's as far as he's gotten. His online bark comes nowhere close to being represented in real-world bite. He's only known as a schismatic figure within a section of the American church that makes up ~1% of the population. He's a Fred Phelps like figure.
This is disingenuous: "He is so disliked, even in his home town, that his associates cannot win local elections." Moscow is a blue dot in a very red state. Wilson planted his church in Moscow for the specific purpose of working to stem leftism. There are not--and currently cannot be--a conservative in Moscow local government. I'm a voter targeting and strategy expert. Your comment here wrecked any notion I might have had about the veracity of all your other claims.
You missed the point. It's disingenuous to use that tactic to discredit. No conservative of any stripe gets elected in that political demographic cluster. Your article worked until then. It was unnecessary.
This essay sheds a great deal of light into your own heart, Mr Callens. The size of the building? An empire? Really, now. Thats rich.
This diatribe sounds like an expression of envy. If the roles were reversed, and CNN were interviewing you, I doubt very much that Doug would be leveling cheap shots against you.
You mean the Doug Wilson who called two female writers "c---s"?
The standard Moscow line that those who point out the ridiculousness and futility of their behavior are envious is the same type of narcissism displayed by a teenage mean girl when she says everyone is jealous of her. It's sad how many fall for it.
I'm quite happy to have “fallen for it”, whatever it is. I'm an elder in a Church in the same presbytry as Wilson. None of the things I've ever read you write about him even remotely ring true.
You call him a narcissist, I think you are an envious slanderer.
I note very much how you skipped directly over what Wilson wrote right the to effete and baseless accusation of "slander" that only works for the members under the gaze of high-control churches.
Oh no! Doug Wilson and his church are ruffling some feathers! I better yell about it and make fun of his church building size and his "small" influence over reformed people in the U.S. - Blake
Are you serious? What actually is wrong with you? You don't have to agree with every aspect of his theology and eclesialogy. But this article is nothing but cheap shots and envy due to Doug and some of the other pastors associated with him actually making a positive difference within the culture and mounting an offensive against a pagan society.
"What aspect of the interview is specifically unbiblical or unchristian?"
I could argue on your terms, that I never brought up in the piece, but that's your game of dialectical framing, and I'm not going to play it. Do you forget that you're an elder in a denomination that specifically anthematized one of Wilson's theological concoctions?
I agree that Wilson’s views will likely never become the mainstream religion of America. Nonetheless, he does have more “soft power” than most religious conservatives.
You don’t have to convince the majority to gain control of a system. You just have to convince the key influencers of a system. Wilson seems pretty good at this.
Yes, reality is personal, and so is power. Unfortunately, in the current climate, it seems that CN's are being used as a red herring and a smear tactic. I find it interesting that this is coming out now and is essentially a repeat of an earlier mockumentary from about a year ago. Understanding how democracy works, I believe this iteration is timed to target Pete Hegseth. I'm not a fan, but you have to call a spade a spade.
Brother, thanks for sharing your comments on this. I have long followed Wilson's rhetoric from a healthy distance, which, I think, is appropriate. However, I'm more interested in hearing where your church is located in Greenville, especially since that's where I grew up (and where my dad still pastors)!
This is what I find frustrating about the critique of CN's. It's focused on tearing down rather than building up. In the final chapter of the Bible, we see a church that is a city on earth. It has a tree of life to feed the nations. Its gates are the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Outside its walls are not other denominations, but liars, cowards, murderers, and all who love falsehood. Let's make that the line of separation. Let's be like Paul and have faith in God, who will correct those sincerely seeking understanding.
I'm here to tear down heretical teachings that allow for the proactive coverup of the abuse of children, because that's what following Jesus Christ is about.
Your critique aligns with my observations in my essay, 'The Ruse of Egalitarianism,' which still needs some polishing that I was planning for this morning, but got sidetracked by your brilliant post. In the essay, I argue that egalitarianism leads to the flattening of identities, making perceptions everything. As an egalitarian thinker, you are criticizing appearances without understanding the deeper issues. Just read what you wrote. Your critique focuses on appearances and judgments based on them.
The issue with Christian Nationalism is the conflation of Christ with the nation, rather than with the state. What we need is Christian Statism, not Christian Nationalism. The US, as a polyethnic state, will face significant challenges with the rule of a single ethnic group. However, the US is an abstraction, a demonic synthesis that does not exist in nature. This entity has appeared in history before in other amalgamations. It is not held together by the bonds of familial affection of an ethnic group and its place, but by the force and fear of the state. This is why the US has the largest police and prison system in the world, as well as the largest military. It is an ancient empire wearing a modern mask. But those who only see appearances cannot see beyond it.
I would refer you to my free, ~400 page book refuting Stephen Wolfe's The Case for Christian Nationalism, published by one Douglas Wilson (whom, you may recall, has had his heretical view of justification specifically anathematized by the denomination you're a deacon in). I assure you that your assessment that I'm egalitarian shows nothing but your binary thinking and cognitive biases.
To be fair, I believe that’s just Christ Church’s new fellowship hall, which they’re using while the rest of the church is under construction (and/or finishing up fundraising). The actual church will presumably be both larger and more beautiful.
Thank you for sharing this brother. Even in Iowa, we see this strange movement peeking its head up.
One thing I think you’re missing is the size of the classical homeschooling movement and the influence Canon Press has there. It’s up here and growing in Canada too- mostly with people who see “Christian worldview” and love it for that, and have no idea who Wilson actually is.
I'm very familiar with CC and his influence there. I'd refer you back to the numbers of conservative Presbyterianism. The post isn't about whether or not he has influence, it's about how small the world he has influence in is.
I guess that’s the thing though. I’m thinking about the homeschool conference in my province and who the people are that are using his work. They aren’t Presbyterian and they aren’t from his denomination. Presbyterians in this country would be quite likely to reject him, and we only have a very few of those churches in the province anyway. The people using him are Baptist, Pentecostal, non-denominational charismatic, Dutch and independent reformed, etc.
The cross section of what’s popular here is not his actual theology. It’s not the covenant/baptism/Calvinism (for the most part). It’s the ‘Christian worldview,’ the dominionism, gender roles, child discipline, standing against culture, and view of politics.
So at least up here, in this province, there is good evidence his influence has (a) escaped the denomination, (b) is growing rapidly outside the denomination and (c) is working its way out of the homeschooling crowd (which is also exponentially growing here as well). You just need to go to the provincial homeschool conference, and then watch to see how his daughter’s books get recommended to non-homeschooling parents and mom’s groups (usually by people who do homeschool). I don’t deny the formal group is relatively small, but if the implicit idea is that they aren’t people we need to think about because their core group is ‘currently’ small (it’s far more the trend that concerns me) or that their influence is limited to what can be seen by the numbers of conservative Presbyterians, I guess I’d disagree that either is a sufficiently nuanced metric.
Again, I would refer you to the numbers, compared to the overall populace. That's what the piece is about. I've personally seen someone go down the Doug rabbit hole, and it was dark. You have to keep what world we exist in, and its overall scope, in perspective.
Fair enough. On that point I do agree. I do also agree that the coverage didn’t understand the ins and outs of how conservative culture works. Thanks for the response.
This analysis is more concerned with scoring cheap shots against Wilson than seriously assessing the situation.
“Much smaller than the average Southern Baptist or non-denominational church”? Per the Lifeway Research report 70% of SBC churches are under a hundred people. Only 4% are over 500. Christ Church in Moscow is estimated between 900-2,000. Granted, that isn’t mega-church numbers, but it does put in the top 2% of churches in the US.
In addition to a very successful church (by numbers, I have no idea about the quality of community there), Wilson has helped build a classical school, St Andrew’s College, and a publishing house. You can scoff at his lack of social media and national influence, but you have to admit they guy has built some pretty impressive institutions from scratch.
I think you are vastly underestimating Wilson et al. Christ Church doubled in size since 2019. Members of the church own 20% of the downtown’s buildings. By running their own school and now college, they vastly increase the odds of passing their values to their children. I think it is very likely that Christ Church’s political influence over Moscow will start to come to a head within the next 10 years, and you will either see a flight from the city of people antagonistic towards the church or (more likely) a rising tide of lawfare against it
You should look at that picture of the interior of the church and recheck your attendance numbers. They don't add up. You're using the number of affiliated churches in the region. The total number of CREC members worldwide is estimated to be 13,000.
The rest of your post is pumping up the facade, and is a diversion from the following paragraph. Wilson's theological monstrosity, Federal Vision, was explicitly anathematized by the PCA for having a view of justification not inline with the Westminster standards:
"To compound this, consider that conservative Presbyterians, the tradition Wilson claims to be a part of, make up roughly 1% of the United States population, and roughly 26% of them lean Democrat. On top of this, the majority of conservative, orthodox Presbyterians, including most pastors, elders and theologians in the Presbyterian Church in America and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, consider Wilson to be a schismatic or outright heretic."
Christ Church has 3 campuses and 5 services every Sunday per their website. Clearly, they are not a small church if they have to have 5 services every Sunday
pictures can be deceiving, this source says the new hall seats 1,200: https://rangemedia.co/doug-wilson-growing-idaho-empire/
I should mention that I believe Wilson’s theology is heretical. But I still think objectively, he has been very successful in building institutions and realizing his vision. I’m impressed, even as I disagree with him. I’m not trying to “pump” Wilson up, I think those are just the facts of the situation.
There's no way that room seats 1200 Sunday morning. At best it seats the same of one section of that church I pictured in my hometown (that also does two services). Again, dozens of churches that size or bigger are in my medium-small Southern town, doing multiple services. One of the suburban First Baptists here has a whole offshoot of differently branded campuses, each the size of that one Moscow building. That's the point. Wilson has been trying to build a physical empire for decades and that's as far as he's gotten. His online bark comes nowhere close to being represented in real-world bite. He's only known as a schismatic figure within a section of the American church that makes up ~1% of the population. He's a Fred Phelps like figure.
This is disingenuous: "He is so disliked, even in his home town, that his associates cannot win local elections." Moscow is a blue dot in a very red state. Wilson planted his church in Moscow for the specific purpose of working to stem leftism. There are not--and currently cannot be--a conservative in Moscow local government. I'm a voter targeting and strategy expert. Your comment here wrecked any notion I might have had about the veracity of all your other claims.
Wilson didn't plant the church, so...
You missed the point. It's disingenuous to use that tactic to discredit. No conservative of any stripe gets elected in that political demographic cluster. Your article worked until then. It was unnecessary.
The point is that you fabricated a history of the church and its pastor's motivation to give the appearance of expertise on the subject.
LOL
This essay sheds a great deal of light into your own heart, Mr Callens. The size of the building? An empire? Really, now. Thats rich.
This diatribe sounds like an expression of envy. If the roles were reversed, and CNN were interviewing you, I doubt very much that Doug would be leveling cheap shots against you.
You mean the Doug Wilson who called two female writers "c---s"?
The standard Moscow line that those who point out the ridiculousness and futility of their behavior are envious is the same type of narcissism displayed by a teenage mean girl when she says everyone is jealous of her. It's sad how many fall for it.
I'm quite happy to have “fallen for it”, whatever it is. I'm an elder in a Church in the same presbytry as Wilson. None of the things I've ever read you write about him even remotely ring true.
You call him a narcissist, I think you are an envious slanderer.
I note very much how you skipped directly over what Wilson wrote right the to effete and baseless accusation of "slander" that only works for the members under the gaze of high-control churches.
🤣🤣🤣
Oh no! Doug Wilson and his church are ruffling some feathers! I better yell about it and make fun of his church building size and his "small" influence over reformed people in the U.S. - Blake
Are you serious? What actually is wrong with you? You don't have to agree with every aspect of his theology and eclesialogy. But this article is nothing but cheap shots and envy due to Doug and some of the other pastors associated with him actually making a positive difference within the culture and mounting an offensive against a pagan society.
Yes, this is what passes for analysis these days. It's astonishing how little self-awareness there is.
A couple of free flow questions:
What aspect of the interview is specifically unbiblical or unchristian?
Is your problem with Doug the fact that he makes money? What’s wrong with for-profit?
What’s wrong with having a small church?
Why shouldn’t Christians talk about politics if they believe the Bible does?
"What aspect of the interview is specifically unbiblical or unchristian?"
I could argue on your terms, that I never brought up in the piece, but that's your game of dialectical framing, and I'm not going to play it. Do you forget that you're an elder in a denomination that specifically anthematized one of Wilson's theological concoctions?
https://heidelblog.net/2016/06/the-pcas-nine-declarations-against-the-federal-vision-2007/
I agree that Wilson’s views will likely never become the mainstream religion of America. Nonetheless, he does have more “soft power” than most religious conservatives.
You don’t have to convince the majority to gain control of a system. You just have to convince the key influencers of a system. Wilson seems pretty good at this.
Yes, reality is personal, and so is power. Unfortunately, in the current climate, it seems that CN's are being used as a red herring and a smear tactic. I find it interesting that this is coming out now and is essentially a repeat of an earlier mockumentary from about a year ago. Understanding how democracy works, I believe this iteration is timed to target Pete Hegseth. I'm not a fan, but you have to call a spade a spade.
Brother, thanks for sharing your comments on this. I have long followed Wilson's rhetoric from a healthy distance, which, I think, is appropriate. However, I'm more interested in hearing where your church is located in Greenville, especially since that's where I grew up (and where my dad still pastors)!
I guess Jesus was also a loser because he didn't have a building, spoke nonsense, and didn't have a large following.
I would agree if Wilson hadn't spent half a century very much trying to build an earthly kingdom.
This is what I find frustrating about the critique of CN's. It's focused on tearing down rather than building up. In the final chapter of the Bible, we see a church that is a city on earth. It has a tree of life to feed the nations. Its gates are the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Outside its walls are not other denominations, but liars, cowards, murderers, and all who love falsehood. Let's make that the line of separation. Let's be like Paul and have faith in God, who will correct those sincerely seeking understanding.
I'm here to tear down heretical teachings that allow for the proactive coverup of the abuse of children, because that's what following Jesus Christ is about.
Your critique aligns with my observations in my essay, 'The Ruse of Egalitarianism,' which still needs some polishing that I was planning for this morning, but got sidetracked by your brilliant post. In the essay, I argue that egalitarianism leads to the flattening of identities, making perceptions everything. As an egalitarian thinker, you are criticizing appearances without understanding the deeper issues. Just read what you wrote. Your critique focuses on appearances and judgments based on them.
The issue with Christian Nationalism is the conflation of Christ with the nation, rather than with the state. What we need is Christian Statism, not Christian Nationalism. The US, as a polyethnic state, will face significant challenges with the rule of a single ethnic group. However, the US is an abstraction, a demonic synthesis that does not exist in nature. This entity has appeared in history before in other amalgamations. It is not held together by the bonds of familial affection of an ethnic group and its place, but by the force and fear of the state. This is why the US has the largest police and prison system in the world, as well as the largest military. It is an ancient empire wearing a modern mask. But those who only see appearances cannot see beyond it.
I would refer you to my free, ~400 page book refuting Stephen Wolfe's The Case for Christian Nationalism, published by one Douglas Wilson (whom, you may recall, has had his heretical view of justification specifically anathematized by the denomination you're a deacon in). I assure you that your assessment that I'm egalitarian shows nothing but your binary thinking and cognitive biases.
https://christiannationalismnotes.com/p/the-case-against-christian-nationalism
To be fair, I believe that’s just Christ Church’s new fellowship hall, which they’re using while the rest of the church is under construction (and/or finishing up fundraising). The actual church will presumably be both larger and more beautiful.
Interestingly, yesterday I posted thoughts on a retrospective of the 1992 Ruby Ridge tragedy near Naples, Idaho.
The antidote to the lies ingrafted in supremacist theology is the Truth of the Gospel.
Hotspots like Moscow present a field, while not ripe for harvest in the biblical sense, that must be sown by faithful workers.
Not an easy or safe proposition.
https://substack.com/@thestealthwriter/note/c-143976121
As Jesus said: “Wrest from Caesar the power he has, put yourself in his seat, and then force other people to live by your prescribed morality.”